Monday, May 11, 2009
God & Man
This post will continue the thread started in the "Welcome" post. The Forum will, as promised, begin new threads when topics head in a new direction. To facilitate that The Forum will also copy and paste relevant comments into the first comment of that section. Finally, as a refresher, Lou has begun a discussion on the relationship between the idea of God (be that the Judeo-Christian God or any other conceptualization of God) and mankind.
Right Direction?
Follow this link...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090510/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_cheney
Former VPOTUS, Dick Cheney said in an Interview with CBS that he would rather have Rush Limbaugh steer the direction of the Republican Party than Colin Powell. Cheney unashamedly desires a far-right social and foreign policy agenda as well as a supply-side, elite-favorinig economic agenda for the GOP that is alienating moderates in the party. The Forum would like consevative leaning members to give thier opinion on this...Do you feel like this is a positive direction for the Republicans? Do you share Cheney's attitudes toward the moderate Republicans?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090510/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_cheney
Former VPOTUS, Dick Cheney said in an Interview with CBS that he would rather have Rush Limbaugh steer the direction of the Republican Party than Colin Powell. Cheney unashamedly desires a far-right social and foreign policy agenda as well as a supply-side, elite-favorinig economic agenda for the GOP that is alienating moderates in the party. The Forum would like consevative leaning members to give thier opinion on this...Do you feel like this is a positive direction for the Republicans? Do you share Cheney's attitudes toward the moderate Republicans?
Friday, May 8, 2009
The Shack
Due to public pressure the Forum is reading The Shack. This thread is for a discussion of this book.
Topic Ideas
The Forum, in the interest of broadening the appeal of this site as well as encouraging further discussion, will be creating a series of posts with only a topic. That way, some new conversations can be had that will be directed by you. The intitiall group will be topics that are of an interest to the Forum but feel free to email new ideas to mattscoles@yahoo.com.
A HOUSEKEEPING ISSUE
The Forum apologizes to those unable to add comments...for some reason Blogger will only allow you to post comments on the newest post unless there is already a comment. Does anyone more familiar with Blogger know a solution to this problem? In the meantime, to circumvent this issue, the Forum will post and then add the first comment to keep comments available for all posts. But the broader issue is that the Forum is trying very hard to hear and not just be heard; to understand and not just be understood. That said, your comments are vital!
A HOUSEKEEPING ISSUE
The Forum apologizes to those unable to add comments...for some reason Blogger will only allow you to post comments on the newest post unless there is already a comment. Does anyone more familiar with Blogger know a solution to this problem? In the meantime, to circumvent this issue, the Forum will post and then add the first comment to keep comments available for all posts. But the broader issue is that the Forum is trying very hard to hear and not just be heard; to understand and not just be understood. That said, your comments are vital!
Thursday, May 7, 2009
Bad sports?
Follow this link.
http://www.newsok.com/house-bypasses-governors-veto-to-claim-oklahomas-sovereignty/article/3366762
Okay...so apparently Oklahoma is actually doing what a recent poll of Texas Republicans are just in favor of....secession from the Union!
For the record, the Forum supports this 100% if only in that it will lower the number of metally retarded people executed in this country. But the larger point is this...
For the past eight years the Democrats were literally closed out of important policy decisions simply because the Republicans had the political juice to do it. Now it seems that as the tables have turned (and incidently, the Democrats have not responded in kind) the right wing of this country just wants to take thier ball and go home. While 60 percent of this country self identifies as "conservative" the Republican/Right Wing agenda simply does not resonate with the body politik like it did during the faux patriotic, post 9-11 days. And so, with little to say and even less to actually bring to the table the Republicans have pouted and stageed "tea parties" against taxes (which even if every Obama tax increase took effect would still keep the tax rate on the richest 2% an astounding 10% lower than the tax rate under Republican Icon Reagan.) and now are simply advocating ABANDONING the US.
http://www.newsok.com/house-bypasses-governors-veto-to-claim-oklahomas-sovereignty/article/3366762
Okay...so apparently Oklahoma is actually doing what a recent poll of Texas Republicans are just in favor of....secession from the Union!
For the record, the Forum supports this 100% if only in that it will lower the number of metally retarded people executed in this country. But the larger point is this...
For the past eight years the Democrats were literally closed out of important policy decisions simply because the Republicans had the political juice to do it. Now it seems that as the tables have turned (and incidently, the Democrats have not responded in kind) the right wing of this country just wants to take thier ball and go home. While 60 percent of this country self identifies as "conservative" the Republican/Right Wing agenda simply does not resonate with the body politik like it did during the faux patriotic, post 9-11 days. And so, with little to say and even less to actually bring to the table the Republicans have pouted and stageed "tea parties" against taxes (which even if every Obama tax increase took effect would still keep the tax rate on the richest 2% an astounding 10% lower than the tax rate under Republican Icon Reagan.) and now are simply advocating ABANDONING the US.
Wednesday, May 6, 2009
Morals v. Laws
During the discussion on the merits of the legalization of gay marriage it was proposed that the prime reason behind the Christian Right's opposition to the legalization of gay marriage lies in thier belief that homosexuality is a sinful lifestyle. Therefore the ultimate conflict arises when the state attempts to condone what they believe to be an illegitimate lifestyle. The Forum does not dispute that these folks have the right to oppose the legalization of gay marriage on a moral ground, however it was suggested that the precedent exists where other Christian morals have led to laws which have never faced any resistance from the left, primarily cited were laws against murder and theft, mirrored in the Ten Commandments.
Again, the Forum does not argue that there is a strong correlation between the civil laws which govern the daily lives of the citizenry and the moral laws that guide the lives of people of faith, however certain distinctions between the two should be made. First, one must look at the difference between a law and a commandment. While many pastors have typically reduced the issue to a semantic difference there is in fact a very basic and very integral distinction...commandments are not a the beginning of a legal proceding. Commandments are not adjudicated. Commandments are not justice. While the Israelites had a complex and well-manged judicial system, the commandments were not addressed in these courts and for the same reason that they are not addressed today. How does one prove in a court of law that someone has coveted his neighbor's wife. If the Forum were so accused then the Forum would most certainly bear false witness. As Christ explained, the Commandments pertained to matters of the heart and to intention. Wishing you could kill someone is the same as actually doing it as far as God is concerned. But this is no way to maintain public order, and God knew that and institued a systematic code of laws to keep order and maintain the common good. Many of these laws are conveniently written out in the Book of Leviticus.
To be sure, some of these laws had a moral aspect to them as evidenced by many of the consequences for breaking such laws. Ultimately though, God was attempting to build a nation and it was massively important that they be bigger, stronger, and faster than their neighbors. Thus we see laws intended to protect the flesh as opposed to protecting the spirit. Take Kosher laws, for instance...Pork, especially in the millenia before Christ, was dangerous to eat...just like today if not properly cooked pork could make you very ill. So, while the Hittites and the Ammonites and all of the other Ites were feasting on the stuff, God said, "no, don't eat pork. you won't get sick and you will be healthier and more fit than your enemies." Eating bacon had nothing to do with the eternal state of the Israelite soul. Niether did not shaving your beard or sitting outside the camp for seven days following an emission that caused uncleanliness. These were all laws designed to make Isreal distinct and keep God's people strong, healthy, and safe.
So today we have laws against things like littering and speeding that have little if any connection to the state of our souls. On the other hand there are also laws against rape, theft, and murder that would seem to be intended to keep us from sinning. Now this, friends, is where it gets a little complicated....
Lying is a sin but it isn't a crime. Although lying can be a civil offense (like libel and slander) with tangible consequences. Ultimately though, you cannot go to prison for lying. Perjury, though, is a crime and is punishable with prison time, however it isn't aqgainst the law because the Commandments say "Thou shall not bear false witness." No, perjury is a crime because the entire justice system fails if people go around falsly accusing people of crimes and then lying about it in court, or if those who are rightfully accused are aquitted by lying.
Theft is not a crime because stealing is a sin but because The right to own property cannot be guaranteed if the government cannot offer legal defense of one's stuff. Further muddying the waters is the fact that there are divergent ideas on what constitutes theft. An Inuit Tribe in Northern Alaska has a tribal law against theft, yet it is perfectly legal to walk into your neighbor's empty house and take his television. However, if your neighbor's son is named John and you decide to name your newborn son John, you sit in violation of the law.
That brings us to laws against murder. Once again, the moral ethic against taking someone's life is clear and present, but it is not distinct from any other code or ethos. Hammurabi's Code made murder illegal but not because the Sumerians were good Christians concerned with the morality of thier nation, not at all. Hammurabi knew, as did the founders of this country that, without penalty for taking someone's life society as a whole will crumble. Gone unchecked murder would litterally leave a community with a "last man standing" mentality. Even if one had committed no offense, that person would at some point be placed in a kill or be killed situation.
Justice is not retribution. Our legal system is designed so that partial and passionate victims have NO rights in regard to the dispersment of punishment. This protects everyone from being handed a 5000 dollar penalty for a fifty buck crime. Back to murder for a moment....if murder was legal, than what would prevent the family of a victim from enacting revenge? Again the system would collapse.
Finally, back to the issue at hand, gay marriage...while the Christian Right will continue to claim some moral certantity that homosexuality is a sin, the state can make no regard about what is sin and what is not sin. Even in matter where it seems that the law and morality intersect, it is important to remember that the legal system makes no determination of morality only justice.
Again, the Forum does not argue that there is a strong correlation between the civil laws which govern the daily lives of the citizenry and the moral laws that guide the lives of people of faith, however certain distinctions between the two should be made. First, one must look at the difference between a law and a commandment. While many pastors have typically reduced the issue to a semantic difference there is in fact a very basic and very integral distinction...commandments are not a the beginning of a legal proceding. Commandments are not adjudicated. Commandments are not justice. While the Israelites had a complex and well-manged judicial system, the commandments were not addressed in these courts and for the same reason that they are not addressed today. How does one prove in a court of law that someone has coveted his neighbor's wife. If the Forum were so accused then the Forum would most certainly bear false witness. As Christ explained, the Commandments pertained to matters of the heart and to intention. Wishing you could kill someone is the same as actually doing it as far as God is concerned. But this is no way to maintain public order, and God knew that and institued a systematic code of laws to keep order and maintain the common good. Many of these laws are conveniently written out in the Book of Leviticus.
To be sure, some of these laws had a moral aspect to them as evidenced by many of the consequences for breaking such laws. Ultimately though, God was attempting to build a nation and it was massively important that they be bigger, stronger, and faster than their neighbors. Thus we see laws intended to protect the flesh as opposed to protecting the spirit. Take Kosher laws, for instance...Pork, especially in the millenia before Christ, was dangerous to eat...just like today if not properly cooked pork could make you very ill. So, while the Hittites and the Ammonites and all of the other Ites were feasting on the stuff, God said, "no, don't eat pork. you won't get sick and you will be healthier and more fit than your enemies." Eating bacon had nothing to do with the eternal state of the Israelite soul. Niether did not shaving your beard or sitting outside the camp for seven days following an emission that caused uncleanliness. These were all laws designed to make Isreal distinct and keep God's people strong, healthy, and safe.
So today we have laws against things like littering and speeding that have little if any connection to the state of our souls. On the other hand there are also laws against rape, theft, and murder that would seem to be intended to keep us from sinning. Now this, friends, is where it gets a little complicated....
Lying is a sin but it isn't a crime. Although lying can be a civil offense (like libel and slander) with tangible consequences. Ultimately though, you cannot go to prison for lying. Perjury, though, is a crime and is punishable with prison time, however it isn't aqgainst the law because the Commandments say "Thou shall not bear false witness." No, perjury is a crime because the entire justice system fails if people go around falsly accusing people of crimes and then lying about it in court, or if those who are rightfully accused are aquitted by lying.
Theft is not a crime because stealing is a sin but because The right to own property cannot be guaranteed if the government cannot offer legal defense of one's stuff. Further muddying the waters is the fact that there are divergent ideas on what constitutes theft. An Inuit Tribe in Northern Alaska has a tribal law against theft, yet it is perfectly legal to walk into your neighbor's empty house and take his television. However, if your neighbor's son is named John and you decide to name your newborn son John, you sit in violation of the law.
That brings us to laws against murder. Once again, the moral ethic against taking someone's life is clear and present, but it is not distinct from any other code or ethos. Hammurabi's Code made murder illegal but not because the Sumerians were good Christians concerned with the morality of thier nation, not at all. Hammurabi knew, as did the founders of this country that, without penalty for taking someone's life society as a whole will crumble. Gone unchecked murder would litterally leave a community with a "last man standing" mentality. Even if one had committed no offense, that person would at some point be placed in a kill or be killed situation.
Justice is not retribution. Our legal system is designed so that partial and passionate victims have NO rights in regard to the dispersment of punishment. This protects everyone from being handed a 5000 dollar penalty for a fifty buck crime. Back to murder for a moment....if murder was legal, than what would prevent the family of a victim from enacting revenge? Again the system would collapse.
Finally, back to the issue at hand, gay marriage...while the Christian Right will continue to claim some moral certantity that homosexuality is a sin, the state can make no regard about what is sin and what is not sin. Even in matter where it seems that the law and morality intersect, it is important to remember that the legal system makes no determination of morality only justice.
Welcome!
Hey everyone and welcome to the Scoles Forum. This Blog is an attempt to continue the vibrant discourse between my facebook friends. The rules, I think, will be very simple: Respect each other as members of this community. That's it. The penalty for breaking this one maxim will be severe...I will personally humiliate any violators in an extreme intellectual fashion....seriously! All joking aside, I really do want to explore some of the issues that tend to get a little divisive and while I totally encourage passionate debate I hope that we can remain civil. One last thing...come to play with your A-Game; fallacies will be highlighted and torn to shreds.
OK...so I am going to try to post regularly and I think that we should just go in a stream of conscious kind of way in the comments section. If things run too far off course I will create a new post for that issue and of course any major news may also spur on the occasional bonus post.
Let's have fun out here, gang.
OK...so I am going to try to post regularly and I think that we should just go in a stream of conscious kind of way in the comments section. If things run too far off course I will create a new post for that issue and of course any major news may also spur on the occasional bonus post.
Let's have fun out here, gang.
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